- Written
by Chuck
Maddox
on 24 June 2000, certain
rights reserved.
- Last
Revised: 1 February 2002, 17:41 GMT
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c.861
Stainless Steel / Black Dial
(1982)
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- 1450040
- 3450803
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Note:
All c.861 German Speedmasters have
the same Reference
numbers...
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c.861
Stainless Steel/Gray Dial
(1982)
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- 1450040
- 3450803
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Note:
All c.861 German Speedmasters have
the same Reference
numbers...
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c.861
Two Tone/Black Dial
(1982)
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- 1450040
- 3450803
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Note:
All c.861 German Speedmasters have
the same Reference
numbers...
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c.861
Two Tone/Two Tone Dial
(1982)
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- 1450040
- 3450803
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Note:
All c.861 German Speedmasters have
the same Reference
numbers...
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Speedmaster
Mark V, c.1045 (1984)
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- 3760806
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Note:
Thicker case to accomodate c.1045
movement...
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All together
now!
Frank
N. Posted to me:
- What are
the ref. numbers of those
siblings?
-
- I'm
sitting here scratching my head, because
either there are only 3 of them (apparently
not so), there are 6 instead of 5 of which
half are pro's, or my info is incomplete. The
ones I'm reasonably sure of are ST 345.0803,
DL 345.0803 and ST
376.0806.
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- Can you
provide more detail for the curious crowd,
please?
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- I have personally
popped off the caseback of each of my German
Speedmasters and visually verified the
information above and below...
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- c.861
German Speedmaster Case Reference
Numbers:
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- Interestingly
enough, all of the c.861 share the same caseback
numbers. I don't know why this is, but I will
speculate that since the only real
difference between the c.861's are the dials,
bezels, and bracelets. The case is the same with
each variant.
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- On the c.861's the
numbers on the caseback consist of 2-8 digit
numbers above one another and are identical on
each of my examples:
 - 1450040
- 3450803
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- Speedmaster
Mark V Case Reference Number:
However, in the case (no pun intended) of
the Speedmaster Mark V, Omega reverted to a
single case number for this model: 3760806, as
pictured below:
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 - 3760806
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- If you ask why the
c.861's have two case reference numbers and why
are the same for each variant, I must answer,
"I don't know!"... As I
don't...
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- Outside
case back markings:
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- However, inside
the case back is not the only place where
numbers are stamped on the German
Speedmasters... On the back of the case back the
calibre number of the watch is stamped as well,
as shown below...
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 - 861
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 - 1045
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- Additionally, the
German Speedmasters also follow the precident of
putting the "Seamaster" product name on
Speedmasters. There has been much discussion on
this point in the past.
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- The story on this
is that the vast majority of Speedmasters have
had Seamaster backs on them... The exceptions
are Moonwatch case Speedmasters in general, The
Speedmaster Mark II, and the 1987 moonwatch case
c.1045 Speedmaster Day-Date automatic all have
"Speedmaster" on the caseback. Other vintage
Speedmasters: The Mark III, Mark IV, and Mark
V's, in fact all of the German Speedmasters, the
Speedmaster 125 and all of the other c.1045
Speedmaster Day-Date automatics have a
"Seamaster" on the case back
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- In the course of
writting my article on the Speedmaster 125, I
sent the following question to John Deithelm of
Omega Vintage Information (For more on how and
when to contact Omega Vintage Information click
here)...
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- 13) Also, a
non-Speedmaster 125 question that I am asked
from time to time...
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- What is the
background on the use of "Seamaster" cases on
certain Speedmasters (most commonly Mark series,
and c.1045 Speedmasters)? I assume it is because
Omega considered these watches to be in
water-resistant cases, but are these watches
also considered part of the Seamaster line as
well as the Speedmaster line?
Mr. Deithelm's reply:
* the case back of such watches are all
showing the " seahorse " emblem, since all these
watches were originally in the* SEAMASTER *
line, although the official name of the Jubilee
version is:
- SEAMASTER
- Speedmaster Professional 125 - chronograph
- * it is only
much later, when the " chronograph " vogue
became so voluminous that we had to separate the
sporty SEAMASTER watches from the " chronographs
" and give them a separate line !
Hence, because the Speedmaster was considered
part of the Seamaster line, they often sported
Seamaster backs. - The 1970's were an
interesting time in Bienne and the swiss watch
industry. Omega had a lot of things going on:
Olympic and other sporting event timing,
development and production of LCD, LED, Quartz,
Tuning Fork, as well as a large varieties of
mechanical movements, and the production of a
huge number of very different watches. The
current product line is a pale shade of what the
product line was in the 1970's. As a result you
see a lot of really weird Omega's (and Heuer's,
Seiko's, etc...). Thus you see a lot of things
that look like pieces of the puzzle that don't
really fit like one would think they should...
Other
case differences-
- As I mentioned
above, the cases used by the German Speedmasters
vary according to the movement housed
within:
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Note:
The shape and size of the case near
where the pin attaches to the bracelet is
different between the c.1045 (left) and
the c.861 Speedmaster (right). The c.1045
case is notably thicker than the c.861 to
accomodate the movement of the
automatic...
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Speedmaster
Mark V (c.1045)
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Speedmaster
c.861
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When I
posted much of this document on WatchNet for a
"Non-Rolex Friday" post, I was asked a couple of
questions by James M. Dowling:
JMD>
As the reigning Speedmaster king, can you answer a
couple of questions for me.
Whell... I tend to
doubt that I am the Speedmaster King... I know of
at least one collector who has 9 distinctly
different model moonwatch cased Speedmasters alone
(I own three {with a fourth one purchased
subsequently}), and I hear that there are some
pretty impressive collections out there in the
hands of Japanese and Italian
collectors.
Maybe I'm a contender
to the throne, though... =) Especially in the
c.1045, Mark Series and German Market
variants.
JMD>
Were any other Speedmasters made for a specific
market?
Yes, there have
been...
JMD>
Do you have any idea why Omega would have made
these watches for the German/Swiss market
only?
Speculation only,
really...
Oh! you want me to go
into details! =) OK!
There has been at
least 1 model made in limited numbers for the
Japanese Market. A full perpetual calendar model
(BA175.0037) made in limited numbers in 1992 to
commemorate the 700th anniversary of the Swiss
confederation.
An example of this
model was offered this week on the
Antiquorum:
There was a 20th
anniversary edition of the Speedmaster that wasn't
limited to a set number sold outside the US and
Germany in 1989. Those are two examples I know of
that have been documented. I've heard rumors of
special "white dial" models made specifically for
the Italian market, but I haven't seen this backed
up by documentation. Then of course there are these
German model Speedmasters.
Other Speedmasters do
seem to have been manufacturered for different
markets. It seems to me that none of the
Speedmaster Automatic Day-Date c.1045's were
initially sold in the USA. Most of the one's I've
seen for sale have had non-English Day wheel's
installed, and many of them seem to have bracelets
stamped "Mexico". I really don't know why this is.
I may ask Omega Vintage Information to elaborate
some day.
As for why did Omega
made these watches only for the German-Speaking
market only? I only have speculation...
According to most
literature the Mark V was only sold in the West
German market. However, a Daniel Klooz emailed me
that it was also marketed in Switzerland where he
bought his Mark V in 1986. Which he paid 600 Swiss
Francs (Regular Price was 1200 Swiss
Francs).
My research has led me
to believe that what I call the "Teutonic"
Speedmasters were marketed only in central europe,
possibly German speaking countries only, for a
short amount of time, usually quoted as only one
year in each instance. While the Time Capsule Book
states it was marked only in Germany I find it
difficult to believe that it was availeble in the
DDR (East Germany) as I think it unlikely that many
East Germans bought or had access to this model
considering the condition of the DDR's economy at
that time (1982~1984)... It was however apparently
available for purchase in Switzerland, as per my
email conversation with Mr. Klooz, and it is not
too much of an intuitive leap to assume it was also
probably available in Austria.
As for the why's or
wherefores for this case, I and others have
speculated that there was perhaps a shortage of
cases for the traditional moonwatch at the time and
it was decided to offer a special edition for these
markets with this alternative case. Now remember
that this is SPECULATION and certainly not factual,
and might not even have the substance of rumor or
inuendo! Please don't email Omega stating this as
published fact, it's not. It's me formulating a
theory that fits the scant available
information.
Having said all of
this, I've really enjoyed the hunt for these
Speedmasters. When I first became aware of their
existance, I doubted that I would ever own one. I
managed to complete my set in less than one years
time. They are out there but you really have to
beat the bushes...
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Addendum
1: They Butcher Teutonics, don't
they?
Recently an
interesting item has appeared on eBay, at
first glance it appears to be a butchered
Teutonic Speedmaster adapted to accept a
leather strap...
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Click
to
Enlarge...
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- As
a matter of fact if you look
at the area around the lugs it
appears that there is a little
crude finish on them... Also
notice that the lugs on the
Mark V with an integrated
bracelet have a semi-circular
bevel on them that I almost
think I can detect on the
questionable
Speedmaster...
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Click
to
Enlarge...
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You
can see that this
semi-circular bevel is
duplicated on the Gray Dial
c.861 Teutonic...
Next,
I look at the back of the case on
the questionable watch (at right
above) and it seems that it looks
subtily different than Teutonics
in my collection (at right
below)...
At
this point I am not certain what
to make of this watch. If it has
been modified it was done by a
watchmaker who is skilled and
talented enough to make it look
very professional, professional
enough to have me on the
fence.
Here
is a listing of the descriptive
text from the eBay
auction:
- This
is an Early 80's manual wind
OMEGA SPEEDMASTER with the
same movement that is found in
the late 60's Omega
Speedmasters. This is the
caliber 861 manual wind
movement and one of Omega's
most reliable movements which
can also be found in many
Seamaster chronographs and The
Speedmaster and the
Speedmaster Mark II. This
Omega Speedmaster is a very
rare one and I never seen so
many of these. There is also a
variant of this model that is
the Mark V but this one is not
which I think is amazing. This
watch has a very beautifull
design and is matte steel. The
leather band is non original
but the original leather band
is still available trough
Omega. This Speedmaster keeps
very good time and all chrono
functions are 100%. the watch
shows normal use and is still
in nice condition. This is a
very nice Omega
collectible.
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Questionable
Teutonic Variant...
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Teutonic
Speedmaster c.861
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It
is my opinion that for some
reason at some time, an owner
decided to convert this
Speedmaster to be able to use a
strap, in other words to
transform the watch into
something with a simulation of
lugs. I suspect this was probably
done due to a broken bracelet or
a lack of available links to
lengthen the bracelet. It's value
as far as collecting purposes I
would think would be greatly
reduced from an intact version of
this mode.
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Here are links to all of the pictures the
seller provided... 1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6,
7,
and 8.
Let the buyer
beware!
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Addendum
2: They put 'em together too,
don't they?
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Back
in August 2001 a colleague
forwarded me an eBay auction and
asked me to comment...
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Here
is the original auction
description:
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- Rare
Omega
Seamaster
- Speedmaster
Profesional
- Model
1450040 c. 861
- Serial
Number
31319340
- Stainless
Steel Case/
Band
- year
manufacture
1972-74
- Brand
New
The special
History with this one of a kind
Omega Seamaster - Speedmaster
Profesional.
We are
selling this watch on behalf of a
retired New Zealand Omega Agent.
This gentleman was the
Distrubutor of Omega Watches in
New Zealand.
The Watch
was specially brought into New
Zealand as a 1 only model, but
unfortunatly the band got marked,
(see photo) and was never offered
for sale until now.
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I
emailed John Diethelm of Omega
Vintage Information with my
suspicions:
Hello
John,
Recently
a colleague forwarded me an eBay
auction and asked me to
comment...
- I
suspect that it is most likely
that someone mated the pieces
of three watches or pieces of
watches to make one "one of a
kind" Speedmaster. The dial
from a 105.012/145.012, the
hands of a Orange/Red Mark II,
and the case / bezel / crystal
/ bracelet of a German Market
1450040/3450803. I suspect
this is a put-together piece.
But a very interesting
put-together
piece.
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- John,
would you be so kind as to run
the serial number if you get
the chance. I'd be real
interested to hear the story
of this watch...
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- Once
again and as always, Thank you
in advance for your interest
and efforts!
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- Cheers!
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- Chuck
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¾ ¾
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- From:
omega vintage information
@omega.ch
- Sender:
John Diethelm
- To:
cmaddox@xnet.com
- Subject:
Chuck MADDOX / yr enquiry
dtd August 17, 2001 / An
interesting Speedmaster
German Market
c.861
- Date:
Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:38:35
+0200
Dear
Chuck,
back
from my holidays... have found
your above enquiry on top of
the pile ( over 200
enquiries...)
About
your enquiry:
- *
mvt N°
31'319'340
- *
SEAMASTER chronograph with
case in stainless steel,
black hard metal cap and
steel bracelet of ref. ST
1166/171
- *
manual winding chronograph
movement of caliber
861
- *
watch reference : ST
145.0023 -
- *
International Collection
early 70's
- *
production and delivery of
above item to our agents in
New Zealand on May 11,
1971
it
feels indeed strange that you
have the above movement in a
case showing the ref. ST
345.0803 - not ST 376.0803
which is a day-date version !
which
takes also the mvt of cal. 861
watch head ref only = ST
145.0040 ) and is of the early
80's , therefore .... probably
a case switch during a
possible maintenance service !
? we shall never know
!
have
a nice day
John
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I'm
never sure if John thinks I own
all of these watches I ask him
questions about or not... So
anyway, I finally have the
information I was looking for to
confirm my suspicions from 3
weeks ago. And all of you looking
for direct responses from John,
he is working his way through the
pile in his in box...
It
looks to me that as I suspected,
this teutonic is a put-together.
It looks like the movement was
gleened from a 145.0023,
a watch most regulars in the
Omega Forum know as
the
"Darth Vader"
Seamaster...
The hands I suspect were donated
from either a Mark II Red/Orange
dial or from replacement parts
from of said same Mark II
Red/Orange Mark II, and these
components were unitified in a
1450040/3450803 Teutonic case. So
this watch is a put-together. A
facinating put-together, a
put-together with an interesting
background, but in the end, still
a put together.
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While I can't say
I've recorded everything I know about these
Speedmasters, I don't believe there is much else
that I know about them. Of course I will add and
refine this document as I learn more about them.
After all, it seems that just about the time things
start to get quiet something new shows
up!
Enjoy!
-- Chuck
Statement of
rights retained and permissions
granted...
Permission is granted
for Damon, Derek, and RJ to include within the
FAQ's they are writing as long as I'm given credit
for this work. Permission for personal, educational
or non-commercial use is granted. The author
retains all other rights not specifically mentioned
here... For all other use please contact
the author.
Disclaimer:
Opinions are my own and knowing me should be taken
with a grain or two of salt...
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