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Welcome to part 2 of the 'Conversation with Chuck
Maddox'.
In the first
part we discussed interests and how this watch thing
started, this part will be more focussed on brands and
collecting.
Do you have a maximum budget for a watch (in
general)? So a single watch never will be more expensive
then (let's say) 5000 Euro or USD?
Thus far I haven't spent more than $3,300 on a
watch (prior to getting it in my hands anyway). I haven't
bid above $4,000 thus far. Those aren't fixed limits, but
it's been where I've been comfortable on the high end
with Internet transactions thus far. Those aren't
"limits" or "budget maximums" just where my comfort level
has bailed out on me in the past...
One of the things as a collector you have to keep a
mind on is not only what is called "the Stein point"
named for OnTheDash owner Jeff Stein... Jeff councils
people to bid to your point of indifference about winning
a watch on eBay and not winning the watch. This is the
point were if you win the watch you feel exactly the same
(i.e. indifferent) as if you are the first runner up.
With the scarcity of some of the models I'm collecting,
I've had to create in my mind a "Stein plus 3 month" and
a "Stein plus 6 month point" which is the same point, but
will you feel the same way about being the first runner
up on a watch 3 and 6 months down the line when another
one doesn't show up to be bid upon.
Counterbalancing those "bidder's remorse" points are
some other considerations. I would guess like many
collectors there is a short list of watches that I'd like
to add to my collection. I try to keep enough money on
hand so that if one of those other watches appears on
eBay just after I've made a purchase I have enough funds
I can consider putting in a serious bid on the second
watch. Or you've just spent $3k on a watch and one of the
other one's on your list comes up, you might have to pass
on it. One of the positions a collector never wants to
get into is when you see a model of watch you feel you
need or the deal is too good to pass up and not really
think you can afford the watch and you go ahead and do a
"I'll buy it and figure out how to pay it later". That's
probably a danger sign you're a little more addicted to
this hobby than is healthy.
And it works both ways... If you drop a sizable stack
of chips on a triple-date Moonphase you might feel the
need to pass on some lesser cost items that come along
soon after.
So, like many other things in life, bidding and
purchasing is a bit of a balancing act. Bidders remorse
balancing buyer remorse, and so forth. And while those
figures I have mentioned above have been what my maximums
have been so far, under the right conditions and for the
right watch, they could be topped.
On the other hand some of my most interesting and fun
watches have come at the other end of the spectrum. I own
at least 5 chronographs (five automatic, one manual wind,
three Swiss three Japanese) that I have less than $200
into. They are great fun to wear, work great, keep good
time and while you'd be sad if one of them broke or were
stolen, it wouldn't be as hard of a hit as if you
suffered a loss on a nice Speedmaster/Carrera/IWC/Zenith.
A lot of collectors are hung up on expensive brands and
minty watches. The inexpensive watches with some usage
marks are GREAT FUN! You don't have to have big bucks to
find cool and interesting watches to collect! You can
have much more fun with a cheap beat-up old Jeep than you
can in a brand new Range Rover.
Do you forget about rational 'rules' sometimes,
when bidding or buying a watch you really like?
The only really fixed notion I have in my
(likely less than) rational mind when I'm considering a
watch is to consider how much money I have on my person,
how much money I have in my various bank accounts, and
how much money I can reasonably count on having in the
near future.
As for my interests, for the most part, I'm very happy
and content in a certain niche of chronographs... I like
chronographs basically from within or near my life span,
mainly of the middle to upper middle of the field when it
comes to the quality level of Swiss brands. I don't own a
Rolex Daytona, but if I live long enough to accumulate
the funds to purchase one of the models I like I would
like to someday. Some brands you'll never see me go for
unless I win the lottery... I doubt you'll ever see me
wearing a AP, Lange, Bruget or Blancplan, UN or VC
either. I like the looks of the Reverso so I won't rule
out a JLC, I like certain Universal Geneve's although I
only own a single Space-Compax. There always seems to be
brands I can explore. There are also many lesser known
and lesser appreciated and often underpriced brands that
I find fascinating: Tissot, Zodiac, Certina, and even
more obscure brands that many people haven't discovered.
Their loss...
Since I know you as one of the Speedmaster-meisters
on the net, can you tell me what you think about the way
Omega is heading too?
Yes, you may. I think if I were to come up with
a single word to describe Omega at this time it would be
unfocused. In the past, even recent past they had
specific product lines and particular niches for most, if
not all of the models in that product line. Their
approach was identify a niche and develop a product to
fill that niche perfectly with a level of quality,
dependability and supportability that we can easily
attain and maintain with a level of service that takes
people's breath away.
In the past couple of years, Omega, with a number of
other brands have been trying to reposition their brand
to some extent... Breitling, TAG-Heuer, Zenith, are the
names most people are familiar with. Each have gone about
it a different way. For Breitling, they've sought to
"add-value" by having all of their products pass
C.O.S.C.
testing. TAG-Heuer and Zenith are now both owned by
LVMH. TAG is doing an interesting thing... They are
growing both upscale and downscale. They now use an
El-Primero base movement in some models of their
chronographs, and they've reintroduced some F1 models to
reestablish their entry level models. Zenith finished up
supplying chronograph movements to Rolex, entered the US
market and said "We supplied movements for Rolex, so our
products are priced close to Rolex now" which has
increased the values of Zeniths new and vintage. The
latter doesn't particularly make me happy as there are
some models of El-Primero that I still seek.
Into this fierce higher competition steps Omega. Omega
seems to have listened to people who have bemoaned "Omega
doesn't use their own movements" and with fellow Swatch
Group division Fredric Piguet conceived of a new movement
that they could claim is "an Omega Exclusive". Which is
fine if it functionality, usability, durability and
reliability is on par with your existing product.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem the resulting c.33xx is.
So between trying to position the product upscale, and
dealing with a dicey movement, Omega has come out with a
slew of new models and variations that overlap so much
that I honestly don't think the customer can decide
between them. I mean on the Speedmaster moonwatch line
alone I had to create a table
to explain all of the differences between Omega's
offerings within the Moonwatches...
An aside:
There are 10
variations of the basic Moonwatch in Stainless
Steel that have been/are/will soon be offered by Omega
in the past 20 months or so. Add 3 more if you count
Gold models, 3 more if you count Moonphase models in
steel, another if you count the gold Moonphase, and if
you want to go back to 1999 you can add the 30th
Anniversary edition and the 1957 Re-Edition. Whew!
And this is just the moonwatch line!
Now we also have a slew of new Seamaster Chronographs,
Railmaster Chronographs, DeVille Chronographs,
Constellation Chronographs, Aqua
Terra's, Apnea's, many of these broad product lines
with many sub-lines that no one can keep straight or even
find, other than they know Omega offers/offered 'em. And
all of this, 80-90% of the non-moonwatch line that I
mentioned in the previous sentence is prior to the slew
of special editions that Omega has come out with...
Schumacher special editions every time he wins a world
championship (which puts the 1990's Chicago Bulls to
shame I'll add), all of the Olympic
Special Editions, the Ernie Els special edition
Connie's, etc.
I'm all for diversity, but there comes a point when it
becomes ridiculous.
And the net effect is Omega painting themselves in a
corner if one of those special editions becomes popular.
Take for example the "Black
Eyed/White Dialed" Speedmasters that have
come out in special editions this past year... Towards
the end of 2003 Omega made a Special run of 300 Black
Sub-dial/White Dial Speedmasters for the Mitsukoshi
department store chain. With such a small production run
in Japan (there are no more rabid collectors anywhere) a
sell out was guaranteed. Omega decided to make the
35th
Anniversary Moonwatch have a very similar look, with
the addition of "July 20, 1969" in red on the dial. This
time with a limited edition run of 3500 units. The United
States is going to be allocated 568 of these watches and
Omega has 1,000 authorized dealers in the US. One dealer
I know has the credit card numbers on file for ten of
them. In other words when they receive shipment of these
watches towards the end of the month if they get ten
watches, they will immediately go out the door to waiting
customers. If the store only gets one only one will go
out. Supply will be very tight and if you want one and
don't have your name on a list already chances are you
won't be able to get one.
So here is a situation where Omega has a hot product,
one it's customers would love to get an example of, but
they've already done two nearly identical models in
limited production special editions! They can't really
release a general production version of this watch
without seriously ticking off the collector community.
Now granted, I don't believe this basic look of watch is
one Omega could expect to have enough sales of to make it
a permanent addition to the product line for the next 15
or 25 years. But Omega could probably easily sell 10,000
or 20,000 of this basic watch annually for the next five
years or more. Unless they've painted themselves in a
corner with their special edition versions of this watch,
like they have! The same thing with the Legend, the
Olympic special editions... If one of them takes off,
they may not be able to exploit the demand and sell
watches to people who want them. This is not a company
that is thinking ahead of the next quarter, the next
Basel fair... At least from my perspective.
Thus, In a word, unfocused.
To use a computer analogy... in 1997 when Steve Jobs
returned to Apple Computer after being deposed for 12
years Apple had between 15 and 18 product lines... With 6
months they had four: Pro/Consumer - Desktop/laptop...
Today, six later... Apple has Five computer product
lines: the same as before and a special model geared for
Education. Five focused lines better serve Apple's
customer needs than 15 or 18 unfocused ones. It is that
simple.
Don't you think they have too many models around at
the moment, to me it seems like they are going to make the
same mistake as they did in the 1970s.
Yes, but not for the same reasons as the
1970's...
I don't think the problems that Omega had in the
1970's were because of the many models they offered back
then... The 1970's were a different time and there were
many other and different market forces involved. In a
vast majority of the world the 1970's were a time of
economic turmoil, a time of vast changes in the market
place. A switch from a high precision mechanics to
high-technology electronics. The entire Swiss watch
industry may not have been blind sided by the
Quartz/Japanese invasion, but for the most part they were
powerless to stop if. For the most part only Rolex in the
middle range luxury brand landscape survived largely
unchanged. Everyone else in this range either defaulted
(Breitling, Gallet, many others) others significantly
restructured or bought out (Omega, Heuer->TAG-Heuer),
shrunk or simply disappeared. Omega's strategy for
survival was to have a lot of different irons (manual
wind, automatics, quartz, tuning fork) in the fire so
that they had their money on all horses. The problem they
then had was they didn't have enough in any one winning
entrant.
The problem today is that there are so many other
brands out there with similar products the way to really
win new/repeat customers is to distinguish oneself with
either better product, better quality/support or a better
all around deal. Because Omega is concentrating on so
many different models and sub-lines they are distracted
enough that their quality control and customer support
appears to be slipping very noticeably. And this was one
of Omega's strong suits not very long ago (5 years).
Is there a company who has a strategy you like
best? Rolex
for not changing a thing (only minor changes) through the
years, or Blancpain
for never making a quartz watch or Tag
Heuer to reproduce the watches they made
in the 60s (Monaco,
Carrera etc.)?
[laughing] Let me run through the
examples you give...
[Laughs] It always comes back to Rolex and
Omega! There is a lot to be said about Rolex's philosophy
of sticking with the classics. There is a reason why the
Model T, the VW Beetle, Jeep CJ, and Porsche 911 have
been largely unchanged for many many years. Because like
them or hate them they did something very well and people
bought them because of that. I know I'd like to see Rolex
be a little more experimental in nature, but I know I
shouldn't get my hopes up... I know Rolex offers a
multitude of ways to customize their watches with
different dials/bezels etc. But I can't get a Chronograph
with a date feature unless I go to a 1950's model.
Blancpain... Quartz
movements aren't a sin. Nor are they anything to be
ashamed to have produced. They serve a valid need for
people and some are pretty cool. While I certainly have
preferences, I don't have problems with Quartz or
electronic movements (Tuning Forks).
TAG-Heuer... Up until four or five years ago TAG had a
strategy I liked... Survival. I hear people bemoan all
the time how they like (the old) Heuers but hate
TAG-Heuer. I've always been of the mind set regardless of
how I've felt about the current TAG-Heuer line, I prefer
a live TAG-Heuer to a dead and buried Heuer. I believe
TAG has the right idea with the Classics line but I think
the implementation can be improved. I'd like to see them
develop close versions of the original, not some of the
"manufactured" classics like the Monza which only shares
the name of the original Monza. I'd like to see a Carrera
re-edition featuring a manual wind version of a Zenith
movement instead of an ETA/Dubois-Depraz piggyback model.
With some of their new models and concepts though, in
particular the Monaco V.4 and the Aquagraph 2000, that
TAG-Heuer isn't afraid to innovate on movements or with
the state of the art of what a serious tool watch can be.
One firm that I frequently mention as one that I am
very fond of is Ventura. They too are a niche player in
the market place. They have one very defined niche:
Bauhaus watch design that I just absolutely love. The
only Ventura models I don't like are some of the more
recent garish gold and Diamond encrusted models which I
feel break the Bauhaus mold. What I like about their
designs is that they are so striking and beautiful they
are going to still look modern and beautiful in 30 years.
They are timeless. (I moved this paragraph/answer up one
question... This is where it belongs)
How about the road that independent watch companies
like Sinn,
Tutima, Fortis, Bell&Ross, Chronoswiss
take, to name a few?
All of the firms you mention have a perceived
market niche and work hard to keep their products great
standard bearers for that niche. Of the ones you mention,
I personally group the first four: Sinn, Bell & Ross,
Tutima and Fortis together a lot... In fact I sometimes
call them the four little Germanic firms... Sinn has
obvious German roots, Bell & Ross were essentially
re-branded Sinn up until the introduction of the Space
three about five years back. Tutima is German, and the
Fortis product line and reason to be is so close to the
other three it seems natural to group them together. Of
those four Bell & Ross is the only brand I don't own
an example of.
Chronoswiss is another interesting brand that has a
narrow prescribed niche in which it operates in and
sticks with it. I love their products, very pretty and a
wonder to look at, I hope some day to own one some day.
But they aren't my typical "big and bold, rough and
rugged watch" fare.
Your preferences for chronograph movements is
probably no secret, you like the Lemania movements best,
hmmm.... Yeah I guess. I like Lemania's a lot,
probably best too.
especially the out-of-production Lemania
5100 movement.
I do have a fondness for that model, more so
than many collectors, but there are other very strong
5100 fans out there.
What are you thoughts on Lemania movements in
general (i.e. Omega/Lemania caliber 321, 861,
1861, 1040, Lemania 134x, Lemania 5100)?
Let me run through them in order too...
c.321: A beautiful classic chronograph movement
(along with the 27 CHRO c12, it's predecessor). A
beautiful movement to behold, neither the Valjoux 72
series nor the Zenith HP146 movements (both fine
movements) are as handsome as this movement. Tough as
nails, has the column wheel instead of the c.861's
lever-cam arrangement. Now, while 99 out of 100
chronograph collectors will tell you that they prefer the
Column Wheel and the looks of an arched bridge, in terms
of function there is little if any difference in actual
day to day usage in my experience. This, I'm easy going
on the Column-Wheel/Lever-Cam question.
c.861 Family: Remember there are a number of
variants of this movement. If Omega replaced the c.321
with anyone else, people would have descended on Bienne
with torches and pitchforks. Every bit as tough s the
c.321, easier to manufacture, higher beat movement, not
as pretty as the c.321. Some people have accused me of
having a preference for the c.321 in the past. I like
them both. Both are great movements. c.1861... I'm
odd that for some reason, I personally prefer silvery
colored watches (Steel and Titanium) but I prefer gilt
plated (Gold colored) movements. I can't explain why but
I do. Aside from the color Rhodium is a superior material
for plating watch movements [full stop].
c.1040/c.1041 (Lemania 1342): Kinda the odd man
out in Lemania's chronograph lineup. It has an odd
"common-axial" subdial at 9 o'clock that
leads to a asymmetrical subdial layout that is, well...
Odd. Hard to get used to, especially if you're used to
the 5100 or Valjoux 7750 layouts. However, when you look
at the movement in comparison to the 5100 the 1040/1041
is has a much nicer look and better level of finish than
any 5100 I've seen save for the Alain Silberstein models.
A very nice movement that is frequently lost in the
shuffle because of it's odd dial-layout. Aside from the
odd subdial layout the one thing I really don't care for
on this base movement is the "quick change" date
feature... On the c.134x models, it seems to have a heavy
"camming" motion to the quick change, while on the 5100
and Valjoux 7750 it's a light crisp "snick-snick" feel to
the action. I only have one of the c.1341 model Lemania's
in a Wakmann perpetual calendar model. I haven't been
particularly impressed with the Wakmann's performance.
Perhaps I'll sample a Tissot c.1341 in the future.
Lemania 5100: The "AK-47" of chronograph
movements: accurate, dependable, reliable, can take
punishment that no other watch can survive and keeps on
ticking. Certainly not the prettiest movement in the
world, or the most elegant of operation, but provides a
multitude of information in the easiest to read layout of
any watch with so complex of a feature set.
You didn't mention a couple of movements RJ, so I
will... Valjoux 7750 family...
Correct, it was left out by purpose, since I am
personally not very fond about it :-)
Hmmm... Besides it's commonality is there any
particular reason why you don't like it? I'm curious...
I also think it is not a very interesting movement to
discuss, because like the non-chronograph ETA2892-A2
movement, it is very common. And qualitywise it is probably
a great movement, as it has proven itself over the years in
a diversity of watch brands like Omega, IWC,
Breitling, Sinn, Chronoswiss and a whole lot of other
brands. However, I think the competition, like the Lemania
5100 is just more interesting.
I suppose I can see that. I'm not a big fan of
the Chevy small-block V-8 (I'm a Ford sort of guy) but
even I admit that the Chevy is sound, a good design and
the choice of many.
My personal 'against' the 7750 is the free spinning
direction of this movement, the wobble it gives on the wrist
doesn't feel 'good' for me. Anyway, at least one watch on my
'wanted-list is a Valjoux 7750 driven Panerai, so it is
absolutely not the case that I don't want to own a 7750.
[Laughs] Danger RJ Broer DANGER! this is
where the trouble starts, and the next thing you know you
have handful's of them. Like a peanut, it's hard to stop
after just having one.
However, feel free to talk about the 7750..
[Smiles] Ok, If the 5100 is the AK-47 of
chronograph movements, the 7750 is the Swiss Army knife
of chronograph movements. I'll run out of digits to count
variations on before Swatch Group runs out of variations
of this ubiquitous movement. While personally I prefer
the 5100 for durability, ease of reading (that center
chronograph minute hand again), and 24-Hour register, I
also am fond of the 7750. Recently I purchased a Katun
limited production run of the Sinn 144 GMT which has a
GMT complication of the Valjoux 7750 and I really REALLY
like that watch. If you are looking for a great full
featured watch that has all the bells and whistles (but
you can't get a 5100) the Sinn 144 GMT is a candidate
worth considering. I know that nearly as many people in
the "Haute Horology" crowd look down their collective
noses at the 7750 as the Lemania 5100. Admittedly this is
about the most common chronograph movement out there
these days. But some movement has to be. It's a good
solid movement, perhaps not the easiest or most exciting
movement to service, but it gives a lot of bang for the
buck and is a strong performer. I don't feel the 7750
family is as easy to read quickly or able to endure as
much abuse as a 5100, but aside from those things it does
everything else well in my book.
And then we have the piggybacking chronograph
movements, the ETA/Dubois-Depraz movements. I handled a few,
amongst them a Speedmaster Automatic. I never heard much
complaints (except for accuracy, which is more or less
different per movement of course) on these piggybacking
movements. How do you look at these movements?
I suspect that my experience mirror's yours... I
hear good things from owners about it being a good
performer (timekeeping and operation), and I hear the
other side (the chonograph module is a bear to work on
and most watchmakers won't touch the module and will
pitch and replace to the tune of $150 in cost). As I
don't usually go for smaller chronographs I haven't felt
compelled to own one. The other thing that bothers me
about the Reduced (and hence other watches with this
movement) is the swapping of the minute and small seconds
on the dial. I'm sure it would be something I could get
used to, but it must be like using a left-handed pair of
sissors if you're a righty, it just seems odd.
On the larger issue of "Piggy-Back" vs. "ground-up"
chronographs, I guess I don't have a big problem with
Piggy-Back movements. I have a slew of Micro-Rotor
chronographs (Heuer, Hamilton as well as Chrono-sport and
even a Bulova "Parking Meter" Bullhead) as well as a
couple of Heuer/TAG-Heuer's with the LWO 283 movement
which features an ETA 2890 or ETA 2892 base timekeeping
movement with a Lemania made piggyback chronograph
movement. I've found the LWO's are excellent performers
and I like them even though their subdial's have a
different layout than the Lemania 7750. And of course
there are the Tuning fork Chronographs I own which also
have a piggy-back arrangement on a Tuning fork movement.
I guess to sum up, I think I'd recommend people stick
with a "purpose-made" chronograph to start out unless a
particular model really excites them. They can always
explore piggybacks as they coutinue their collecting
journey.
The Omega c.33xx
movement (c.3303, c.3313, and c.3301)... This subject
is one that I've probably spent more time on and
experienced more contention than any other since I
started collecting watches. A couple of years back Omega
announced with much fanfare that they were going to be
releasing a new chronograph using a movement codeveloped
with Frederic Piguet. Piguet had developed and sold to
some higher end brands a movement called the c.1185. The
new Omega-Piguet movement was a new movement
incorporating many of the features that the 1185
possessed but was to be a new movement. Omega came out
with the watches and a bunch of people jumped on the
"in-house movement" (a bit of a misnomer, it's an Omega
Exclusive, but in-house could be, and has been, debated)
bandwagon and bought one. At the time I urged people be
cautious because there were frequently problems with new
movements and it seemed to me to make sense to hold off
purchase for a year, maybe two to see if there were any
problems with the movement.
It didn't take long, but the first reports of problems
started coming in... ... and they continued to come in,
and have kept on coming in, and while we are in a lull
currently (about 6 weeks since we've heard of a new
problem) we have come to expect a new problem report
every couple of weeks.
A TZ Omega Forum regular was kind enough to post a
service bulletin that detailed four main problems with
these movements.
The 33x3
problems post at by Shaun T and my
(rather lengthy) thoughts about it can be found on
TZ.
To sum up there are some parts that these
movements were shipped with that have since been revised
to correct problems that were discovered after these
watches were delivered to dealers and customers. While
Omega says they have taken steps to correct these issues,
it is at the very least debatable if they are enough for
a firm who wishes to keep the kind of customer relation
rapport they have enjoyed in the past.
I feel the c.33xx has potential, but unfortunately,
thus far, it hasn't lived up to expectations that people
had for it. Omega/Piguet may be able to overcome the
problems they've experienced in time, but they have a
ways to go... There is more they could be doing to
minimize this issue from a dealer and from a customer
standpoint.
I recently had an email conversation with Jean-Michael
the owner of both lemania5100.net
and navitimer.net
and this is how I summed up my feelings on the c.33xx
movement:
Thus far, it's been my observation that the
c.33xx is the antithesis of the 5100... Where the
c.33xx is beautiful, the 5100 is comparatively crude
and where the c.33xx is sophisticated, the 5100 is
basic. However, where the 5100 is dependable, the
c.33xx has been flaky and where the 5100 is rugged,
the c.33xx is fragile.
That is my impression of the c.33xx movement family
based on what I've seen.
Have you ever seen a Lemania movement used in
Patek
Philippe watches seen up close &
personal?
I've only had quick glimpses of Patek's and
never had an opportunity to closely examine the movement.
What did you think of it, did it gave you a thrill?
They are nice watches, but they are really out
of my interest sphere. It would be like me looking at
vintage Bugatti's, they are so outside my interest
sphere, I can appreciate their beauty on a certain level,
but my tastes are more blue collar than white tie and
tails.
And the size... aside from the fact that they are a
bit 'vintage Bugatti', and thus with ditto price tag, they
are small!!
Well the price tags are certainly anything but
small! The are really outside my serious interest sphere,
and as such while I'll give them a glance in a display
case, they won't get much other scrutiny. On the other
hand, even though I'm not exactly going to me mistaken
for a jockey being John Candy sized as I am, I have
bought some smaller chronographs the past couple of
years. A Bucherer, a couple of Tissot's and a couple of
Tourneau's that are on the smaller side (smaller than a
1960's Seamaster or Carrera) and they are nice watches
and great to wear as a change of pace.
Back to the Valjoux-series, are you fond of the
older Valjoux movements, like the Valjoux 72 family?
Yes, I am. I own a number of Valjoux 72's as
well as the many variations: v.721 (Seafarer), v.723
(triple-date), several c.724's (GMT Complication), c.726
(Improved c.72), and a c.728 (single register with a
center pinion chronograph minute counter (similar to the
Lemania 5100 and 1341/2) and the v.88 (triple-date
Moonphase. A very good solid movement. I don't feel it is
as pretty as the Lemania 321 but it's very nice, more
variation in features. The Valjoux has a number of very
long and delicate levers that the Lemania either doesn't
have or are shorter or much thicker, which contribute to
the Lemania's reputation for robust movements that can
take punishment well. BTW, for those who are interested
the v.727 refers to the Rolex version of the Valjoux 72
typically.
I've said in the past, and drawn the ire of some
moonwatch fans, when I've said I'm not comfortable
blaming the 72 for the failure of Rolex and Longines in
the NASA astronaut watch tests. One can't easily lay the
blame for the disqualification of the Longines-Wittnauer
(popped crystal) and Rolex (warped hands) competitors for
the NASA testing at the feet of the Valjoux 72 because
their failures were non-movement related issues. We may
never know if, say, a Omega manufactured v.72 might have
been able to have pass the NASA tests.
As for Zenith, you have a few El Primero driven
watches,
A few. I received one between parts 1 and 2 of
this conversation.
what do you think about this movement qualitywise?
I think in terms of technical design it's still
the high water mark. Manufacture quality... It's the
equal of anyone else's work in my opinion.
Is the movement hyped do you think,
Certainly it's acclaimed, in my opinion for good
reason. Hyped? Perhaps, but not over hyped. I mean no
other movement in mass production can do what it does,
and it has done it for 35 years now.
or does it really live up to its quality-image on
the several watchfora?
I feel it does, and I feel many other people
would feel the same way.
Let me put it this way. How many Omega fans would line
up to buy a moonwatch equipped with an El-Primero
movement, how many Breitling owners? IWC? I think the
line would go out the door.
Rolex used the Zenith El Primero movement for a
while in their Daytona.
Yes, and they labored for a number of years to
develop their own in-house movement. A move I applaud.
That's a significant investment in resources and faith
that the ends will justify the means.
Why would Rolex have downgraded the bph to 28800
instead of maintaining the 36000 bph and did some more
changes in construction (like the escapement and balance),
to maintain a certain quality in their Daytona
models?
My knowledge of Rolex's motives is probably at
the competent guessing level. But it's been my
observation that Rolex prefers tradition, durability and
ease of servicing over other considerations when there is
a conflict. So they fine-tuned the movement to their
tastes. No different than Carroll Shelby making changes
in the GT-40's he was supplied in Ford's quest to win
LeMans in the 1960's. A watch beating at 28,800 is not
going to need service as frequently or as exotic of
lubricants as Zenith uses in it's tune of the El-Primero.
An aside: I read a post in a Rolex forum this morning
where someone posted the papers for a Bond Sub they had
just acquired... The text of the service center page
illustrates well Rolex's mindset:
OIL CHANGE EVERY 7000
MILES
The rim of a balance wheel travels 7000 miles in 18
months. That's time for an oil change. Every year to
18 months take your watch to an official Rolex
servicing agent for oiling and cleaning, and if it's
an Oyster, a waterproof check.
Rolex owners are known for using their watches the way
an adventurer would use a Land Rover. Zenith has a
different market segment it prefers. You'll notice the
near complete lack of sports models in Zeniths more
recent product lineups. Sport's models: Sub's, GMT's,
'Dwellers, Daytona's are Rolex's bread and butter.
What is your opinion on servicing chronograph
watches? You have quite a few vintage chronograph watches,
and 'specialties' as well (Speedmaster (Pro) caliber 321
models,
Well, certainly not just c.321's on the
Speedmasters... I have some Seamasters too.
Breitling Navitimer
ref. 806, Zenith El Primero). Maintaining these watches
isn't cheap, have you got a schedule for this, or do you
only service the pieces who get regular 'wristtime'?
I inspect virtually all of my watches under
high-magnification upon receipt. If the watch looks clean
and lubricated properly (damp in the right places, but
not dry or wet), I'll wear them, testing for function,
accuracy and reliability. If I have any doubts I'll
take/send it to one of four people I've sought out and
trust. Two of the fellows are Chicagoland local for me,
one is in New England, the other in the greater Toronto
Canada metroplex. Baring them I'll send it to the factory
or an authorized service center.
I do keep my watches in a safe climate controlled
location with adequate heating/cooling humidity controls
to keep the watches happy. And remember that with very
few exceptions most of my watches get very scarce wrist
time. So they don't get a lot of wear. If I haven't worn
a watch in a long time and it's turn is up, I'll wind it
up, give it a whirl and if I have any cause to suspect
something amiss I'll inspect and deal with it.
Aside from that I'm working to establish a regular
schedule for my watches to get at least a clean and lube
every couple of years. I'm not entirely there yet, and it
is far from automatic, but that's the long term plan.
Back to a more general point of view on watches and
the watch business. Can you give me a quick thought on the
Swiss watch industry, the German watch industry and the
Japanese watch industry?
I'm not going to take these in order... But,
hmmm...
Japanese watch industry... I think there was a
time where they were incredibly innovative and aggressive
in the marketplace, being among the first to develop an
automatic chronograph movement, an early adopter of LED
and LCD quartz technology, as well as realizing the
benefits of analog quartz offerings, then for the most
part they rested on their laurels for a while evolving
instead of innovating. The past couple of years I've seen
some really interesting ideas and things coming from
Seiko and Citizen (especially) as well as Casio and even
Timex. I've long said that one would be hard pressed to
find a better deal "bang for the buck" than a Casio
G-Shock watch. It's good to see some of the nifty new
things, both technological and quality wise on the
Japanese front.
The German brands... I'm going to assume you
mean the German brands we were talking about earlier...
Well, I meant the German watch industry in general,
which includes A.
Lange & Söhne, Glashuette Original,
Nomos etc.
For the most part these brands are outside my
usual interest sphere. I admire the quality and
inventiveness of their movement and configurations. They
watches each create are technological a tour-de-force.
However with these three they aren't going to be mistaken
for tool watches. I will say that I personally consider
Nomos to be one of the hidden gems of the watch industry.
They make beautiful watches at a reasonable cost and
every owner I've ever talked to has been thrilled with
their purchase.
As for the German "Tool Watch" brands... The big
problem they face is the supply of ebauches. Which
involves the Swiss watch industry... Up until a couple of
years ago all four of these brands: Sinn, Bell &
Ross, Tutima and Fortis were heavily dependent on the
Lemania 5100. Bell & Ross started transitioning about
the same time they were cutting their ties with Sinn, and
seem to be completely 7750 based. Sinn still has a few
5100 models available but they are getting scarce, and
once they are gone... They are gone. Fortis started
transitioning after Bell & Ross and with the
exception of a limited edition B-42 is completely over to
the 7750. Which leaves Tutima... I really don't know what
Tutima's plans are. They are probably the smallest of
these brands in terms of size and sales. It's possible
they have a surplus of 5100's and can continue production
for the time being and perhaps into the future. But
sooner or later they too will have to switch to
something.
A moment of rage here for the 5100... It's a
shame that Swatch either with intent or neglect is
putting the 5100 out to pasture. The reasons aren't
because the watch is a failure, or unpopular or there is
a lack of demand for it, but rather it isn't pretty in
the opinion of the watch movement appreciation society
and no one within Swatch or Lemania is interested in
putting their wing over it and protecting it. It's a fine
movement, a better performer than many of it's
replacements (c.33xx among them) are. If Swatch, or
Lemania can't be bothered to make it, then license it or
sell it off like they did the LWO 283 movement to
Dubois-Depraz! There aren't a huge number of
automatic-chronograph movements around that watch firms
can use to make watches. We need more choices not fewer.
If I ever win the lottery maybe I'll approach Swatch.
The Swiss watch industry... The biggest cloud
on the horizon for the Swiss watch industry is Swatch's
decision to stop supplying base ebauches to anyone
willing to pay for them. I forget the exact date, but in
the near future, Swatch will only sell assembled
movements to non-Swatch group firms. I understand and
empathize with their situation... Unscrupulous groups
have been purchasing base movements and making convincing
replicas out of them. But what does this mean to firms
using them? Higher costs for movements they incorporate
into their watches. What does that mean to the customer?
Higher prices. With the exception of Rolex, Zenith, some
of the high-end manufacturers, all of whom make their own
movements, and of course Swatch Group companies
themselves this means they either have to pay Swatch
Group for their reluctance to support the Swatch/ETA
movement conglomerate, find a new movement supplier, or
make their own. Will this cause a flurry of movement
development among non-Swatch firms? Perhaps for simpler
movements, less likely for chronographs. Which I believe
for most firms and for consumers expect prices to rise
significantly in the next couple of years. On the other
hand, the global economy, which had been in something of
a funk ever since the "Asian Contagion" of the higher
prices without difficulty. Hard to say.
I also think that some of the Watch conglomerates will
continue to cherry pick independent firms to add to their
portfolio. With some of the firms we've mentioned going
up stream in the niche market place I can see "the bigs"
looking for other firms, set up and ready to go to fill
in the areas that those firms have started to neglect.
Wittnauer, Waltham, Oris, Limes, Glycine, Revue Thommen
among others might be good candidates with followings,
enough heritage and fame to be valued additions.
Are you aware of the "new" Dutch watch company
called Van der Gang, which is besides Christiaan van der
Klaauw our own watch company in The Netherlands?
While I've heard of Christiaan van der Klaauw, I
was unfamiliar with Van
der Gang. I guess I have to do some Google searching!
This is why I consider myself a student of the topic at
hand. For I'm always learning new things.
What do you think about their chronograph and the
fact that their influences are very obvious (IWC Portugieser
Chronograph)?
I have no problems with people making their own
interpretation of the "classics", but I don't think it's
very bright for an unknown to make a copy with a movement
that is likely as common as dirt, add little value and
charge the same price. I love "Poor-Man's"
interpretations, I am not likely to fall for no-name
copies at the same price.
Do you like the IWC Portugieser line any way, as a
chronograph-nut?
I think the Portugieser line is an interesting
line/watch and very very beautiful. I am not as big of a
fan as many people are because I'm an hour-register sort
of guy and I feel a chronograph lacking an hour register
is of limited utility. I own several Porsche-Design/IWC
Chronographs which I am very fond of. I wish they were
still available new and still easily findable used at
reasonable prices.
Ironically of the current IWC models the one I really
like the most is the Da Vinci line. I think the Da Vinci
(either the original or the Rattrapante) in Gold is the
ultimate dress watch... In fact one I've heard my Ed.
Heuer & Co. 125th Jubilee chronograph likened to a
"Little Da Vinci", and if you look at the "Small Da
Vinci" you can see why...
Reference 3736 from IWC. The small
Da Vinci in 18 ct. yellow gold with brown crocodile
leather strap.
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