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Posted By: Michael Stein (Cologne-Germany) <tz@moonwatch.de> (a1as18-p222.due.tli.de)
Date: 9/24/1 - 16:49:32
Chuck,
The "Omega Saga" is a very valuable source for everybody who is interested in deep detail of special Omega models and the history around them. I would really recommend it to you. The only way to obtain it is direcltly from Biel. Just write to marco.richon@omega.ch and provide him with your address and card details and you will have it in only a few days. The Saga wasn't written for the book market, it was more a joint venture of Marco Richon, many Omega specialists, Marc Gassmann of the Omega Foundation and Nicholas Hayek to celebrate the 150th anniversary of Omega. The information this book provides is like an official statement coming from Omega.
John Diethelm is certainly very knowledgeable as well, but he has a completely different background. He is the master over the Omega records and files, but more from a technical side. It's quite different to that, what Marco Richon does and what he especially did during his researches for the book. He also has a comparable history in terms of service and is head of the museum since it was opened in 1983. If John Diethelm should answere a special question, it wouldn't take me wonder, if he was looking it up in the Saga.
With respect to the other books you are mentioning, you didn't want to compare them with the Saga, did you? The Imai book is very nice and I like it for a quick reference. And the Rolex book, I don't see where it could provide more information on.. Wait until you have seen the Saga and you'll know what I mean.
Back to our question:
I cannot provide you with what you accept as the only proof for the fact, that the 861 went also to the moon, which is a photograph showing a 861 on the surface of the moon with the back unscrewed. I'm afraid you never will get that. I don't know, if you will ever find a pic whith a shot close enough to identify the movement and the lunar environment at the same time. It seems to me you would even doubt a first hand verbal information., as long as you don't see your pic.
But what we have at least is a second hand information that states the 861 was used. And we have a lot of first hand information about circumstances from wich we can conclude to that. From both we can say that the use of the 861 has been most certainly and to speak in your terms, it's very close to 100%. The underlying evidence is so huge, there are people sentenced to death by a lesser grade of evidence.
For the second and biggest contest NASA invited all the manufacturers of the world and in the end 16 did participate in the contest. Those second tests had a completely different testing programme to the first ones. Every watch had to undergo twice the circle of each test. They had quite a big machinery af test apparations (You can see a pic in that book). They cooperated with other institutions like that in Neuenburg to have some tests done which they couldn't perform. All that was certainly very expensive.
The winner out of all those testing procedures was the Speedmaster cal. 861 in a case from Star Watch, Michigan.
Dou you really believe NASA did neglect all that and did use the old version of the Speedmaster?
Watches they had purchased by chance and which didn't participate in the second test?
Come on, nobody would believe that!
Your theorie whether they had some of the old ones left or not is irrelevant, since they never had used them anymore. Hey, they could buy as many as wanted for just $ 1.00 each! And they were new, provided for being better (by Omega) and they won the second test! And since they came from Omega directly, I'm quite sure they have been tested at Omega also, before they were provided to NASA.
Do you really think NASA had acted like a good housewife, who is first using up her left-overs (if there were any) before buying and using new stuff? Remember what the other guy here in this forum was posting about discarded or left-in drawers Speedmasters. I believe they didn't care at all about the old watches, if there were some left anyway.
And there is another point: What do you think had happened to that NASA guy, who has been responsible for the decision to use the old and untested (in second tests) watches in case something went wrong with a watch?
What, if the press had discovered, that despite to the "Buy America Act" and all the efforts of Bulova, the lobbyists, and the test series, NASA was all that ignoring and still using an "unamerican" product?
No Chuck, you won't expect, that anybody would believe that.
You are asking for a 100% security in those questions. I'm afraid you'll never get them. It's only sure for 100% that you and I will die one day.
You included some links to your page. I like it very much and use it sometimes to get a quick reference. But in some places you are providing some things a a fact, which are wrong or assumptions or not up to date.
Here is not the space to go through all the things, but let me shortly go into some parts of the section, which is headed "What can we conclude as fact". http://chronomaddox.com/moonmovement.html#Survey_of_Speedmasters
After what you were telling me about conclusions and facts, what is it now? Conclusion or facts?
1. Your first fact seems to be wrong. The Mercury programme took place between 1961 and 1963. But NASA started to procure the watches of the ten participating brands already in 1962.
BTW: The first Speedmaster in space was the one of Walter M. Schirra with Sigma 7 on October 10, 1962. But well, that one was bought by Shirra himself.
2. There is many information about the fact, that NASA procure the 861 before 1978 (see above and earlier postings). Just remind of the $1.00 Speedies for the second contest in 1972.
3. Now you acceppt J.D.'s answer as a fact? I thought you only trust in photos?
5. Yes, but how could they. They didn't get a feedback from NASA about which one of the dozens of watches were used and in which of their space programms. They certainly know about it, but they have no "Official Stetement".
10. The quotation of J.D. sounds very much like Marco Richon's statement made in the Saga and quoted earlier by me. But when I did so, it wasn't relevant for you.
And in you Bottom Line:
1. "Omega has stated as fact" ... What now? Are Omegas statements now facts? For you, so you told me earlier, it's not.
3. I think we now are a huge step ahead of that. There is a lot of evidence, that the cal. 861 was used on moon missions.
I personally doubt you will ever receive potographed eveidences on all the questions. And it's certainly not necessary. Imagine there was a court case about those questions. What do you guess were the result based on all evidences and conclusions we now have?
Cheers, Michael
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