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Posted By: Chuck Maddox (Chicagoland area) <cmaddox@xnet.com> (power.xnet.com)
In Response To: There are more answers... (Michael Stein (Cologne-Germany))
Date: 9/23/1 - 19:08:51
Chuck,
There are a lot of more answers to your questions you can find in that book.
Please don't take it personally when I ask questions, as the book is very difficult, if not impossible to obtain here in the US... I believe that Bill Sohne got his copy via Omega in Bienne and that probably is the only way to get it short of buying it via a French book site or physically visiting a European "brick and mortar" bookstore or watch fair. I do not know of anyone in the US who owns a copy. It is that difficult to obtain. I wish this were different but it is not.
But you won't expect me to translate half the book (some 500 pages), will you?
I don't believe I asked you to translate anything Michael. Correct me if I'm wrong.For what it's worth... I want to learn more too... Asking questions is a particularly effective way of learning in my experience. I learn not only when I ask questions, but when I'm asked them too...
I think there is no doubt about the fact, that Marco Richon is, as the curator of the Omega Museum, Biel, and author of the Omega Saga, the most knowledgeable person about the Speedmaster and its history. He is paid for that. It's his job doing researches on that for years now. And there's nobody in the world who has more chances to receive first hand information from all sources than him. So if he states something, I'll buy that.
I don't disagree that Mr. Richon isn't an authority... I don't believe that I said that I did... Correct me if I am wrong.
When you are saying "So Mr. Richon seems to be in agreement....", please let me know with whom he is "in agreement"?
John Diethelm who heads Omega Vintage Information... As posted previously in TZ Classics: 381 which is refereed to in the article I referenced in my previous post, 1306.
I think it should read just the other way round, so one can only agree with him.
I prefer to trust the facts and make my mind up based on them.I don't think that Mr. Deithelm is any less of an authority than Mr. Richon. Do you? Mr. Diethelm has been with Omega in Bienne since the 1960's at the very least.
As for the main question I didn't deliver conclusions, but only facts.
The title " Both, the 321 and 861 went to the moon! (long) " sounds like a conclusion to me not a fact.
That question, whether the 321 or the 861 were used is definately answered and clearly steted by Marco Richon: "Celles-ci prendront progressivement de relais au début des années septante." Period. What else should he mean when he mentions that?
As I can read about 12 words of French personally so I really don't know what else he should mean... Here is the AltaVista translation which is the best I can do..."Those will gradually take relay at the beginning of the years seventy. "I realize that this is merely a computer translation but this does not seem terribly specific to me... It seems a little vague. It certainly is not "definately answered and clearly steted" in my opinion. It is not clearly stated, nor is the answer in any way definitively. Period. As least with the only translation I have.
The introduction to the market? Certainly not. That took place in late 1968 with a lot of advertisement, since theys were proud to present an "improved" movement.
Then again this is not in question.
I another place he states: " 1942: Construction par Albert Piguet (Lemania) du calibre chronographe 27 CHRO C12; il engendrera le 321 en 1946, puis le 861 en 1968, qui équiperont tous deux la Montre de la Lune. Voir chap. 6." (Chap. 6 is related to space missions).
I'll do the AltaVista translate for the for the non-French speakers again..." 1942: Construction by Albert Piguet (Lemania) of the gauge stop watch 27 CHRO C12; it will generate the 321 in 1946, then the 861 in 1968, which will equip both the Watch with the Moon. See chap. 6. "Again not in contention by anyone that I am aware of...
And especially here:
"Lancement du calibre 27 CHRO C12 qui est remarquable pour deux raisons:
1. c'est le plus petit calibre chronographe-bracelet du monde avec compteur 12 heures;
2. c'est l'ancêtre des calibres 321 et 861, qui équiperont la célèbre Speedmaster, sélectionnée par la NASA en 1965 pour tous ses astronautes et devenue "Montre de la Lune" en 1969."
AltaVista:"Launching of the gauge 27 CHRO C12 which is remarkable for two reasons: 1. it is the smallest gauge stop watch-bracelet of the world with meter 12 hours; 2. it is the ancestor of the gauges 321 and 861, which will equip celebrates it Speedmaster, selected by NASA in 1965 for all its astronauts and become " Watch of the Moon " in 1969."Again these three points are not in dispute:
- the 27 CHRO C12 the smallest sized chronograph of it's era
- it is the ancestor of the calibre 321 and 861
- and will equip it Speedmaster, selected by NASA in 1965 for all its astronauts (c.321) and become " Watch of the Moon " (the 145.022 which is a c.861) in 1969. "
I don't believe this to imply that the c.861 was worn on the moon in 1969. I believe this means that the 321 part refers to all it's astrunauts and the c.861 part refers to the First Watch Worn On The Moon ( " Watch of the Moon " ) caseback of the 145.022.
We have pictures of at least three watches (Shepard's, Evans, Conrad's which are c.321's with an extremely high certainty... I have yet to see any picture or document that shows any c.861 was worn on or near the moon. My definition of near the moon is lunar orbit/flyby so Apollo: 8, 10-17 are the only possible missions thus far. This does not mean that one or more c.861's could have made it near the moon, just that I have no evidence to support that contention, what you have reported inclusive
And if you still aren't convinced, continue reading:
Convinced of what Michael? What you are posting thus far in this message has not disputed anything I have stated...Let's continue...
1978:.... Omega présente (rem.: to NASA for the third testings) trois versions de sa Speedmaster: la "Professional" méchanique à remontage manuel (cal. 861), la "125" automatique chronomètre (cal. 1041) et la "Speedsonic" électronique à diapason (cal. 1255)..."
AltaVista again:1978:.... Omega presents (rem.: to NASA for the third testings) three versions of its Speedmaster: the " Professional " mechanic with manual reassembly (cal 861), " 125 " automatic stop watch (cal 1041) and the electronic " Speedsonic " with tuning fork (cal 1255)... "Again, Michael, none of this, not any bit of it, is in dispute! And I really don't see what something that happened in 1978 has to do with Apollo missions which concluded in 1975 with the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project (ASTP) in 1975...
Any questions?
I do not understand the relevance of the additional information you've added thus far to the topic at hand - that "Both, the 321 and 861 went to the moon! (long) ". I do not disagree with what you've quoted in this reply so far.Because of forum posting size limitations I have to split up this post... Please look for Part 2!
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